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 Calvin Johnson 
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
regularjoe12 wrote:
jrd66 wrote:
4 years with CJ. 8 wins so far. The games do not change with him in the lineup as they seem like they should. This may get better with Stafford in the game, but to date it is not there. I hope this becomes the case.

The first 3 seasons for CJ are essentially identical production wise to the first 3 seasons for Roy Williams. Plus 250 yards or so, less 3 or 4 touchdowns. CJ is better, but is does not show up in the win column.

This is the fallacy of drafting a WR so high and paying so much. Stafford and Suh will command the bulk of the dollars going forward, can you afford to keep CJ past his 1st contract?

CJ is not the face of the franchise, Stafford is and will be going forward.

The Lions are a LT and 2 DBs aways from being really set to compete for the playoffs, they probably won't get them all in the next draft. That means 2012 I guess? Will CJ be looking for $80 million at that point?

For the right offer, I would not be shocked to see him traded. Not for a song, but for a significant package of picks or players. The money involved may make this the best play in the next couple of seasons.



Yeah...gotta admit..the philosophy of "we can lose just as well without him" is so Millen it's not even funny...If I never hear that again it will be too soon. Dont blaim the line, or the rotten D...it's all CJ's fault the bastard!


I think what hes getting at is that our line and other supporting cast is so bad that even if we have CJ, it just might not matter.


September 21st, 2010, 5:30 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
regularjoe12 wrote:
jrd66 wrote:
4 years with CJ. 8 wins so far. The games do not change with him in the lineup as they seem like they should. This may get better with Stafford in the game, but to date it is not there. I hope this becomes the case.

The first 3 seasons for CJ are essentially identical production wise to the first 3 seasons for Roy Williams. Plus 250 yards or so, less 3 or 4 touchdowns. CJ is better, but is does not show up in the win column.

This is the fallacy of drafting a WR so high and paying so much. Stafford and Suh will command the bulk of the dollars going forward, can you afford to keep CJ past his 1st contract?

CJ is not the face of the franchise, Stafford is and will be going forward.

The Lions are a LT and 2 DBs aways from being really set to compete for the playoffs, they probably won't get them all in the next draft. That means 2012 I guess? Will CJ be looking for $80 million at that point?

For the right offer, I would not be shocked to see him traded. Not for a song, but for a significant package of picks or players. The money involved may make this the best play in the next couple of seasons.



Yeah...gotta admit..the philosophy of "we can lose just as well without him" is so Millen it's not even funny...If I never hear that again it will be too soon. Dont blaim the line, or the rotten D...it's all CJ's fault the bastard!



CJ has no drive, no fight, and very little care in him. He is Roy Williamsesque in his approach to the game. He doesn't care how often he gets the ball, he doesn't seem to care when the team loses, he just keeps his head up and keeps cashing his paychecks and laughs all the way to the bank. He does the bare minimum that he needs to do to stay on people's minds and in the lime-light where he can earn a ton of cash. I wouldn't doubt that he disappears even further after he gets his next big pay-day.

CJ could make the criticisms of him and his play go away with a quickness if he would turn it on, turn it up, focus, stop dropping easy catches, go over the middle, and play the damn game the way its meant to be played. Instead he plays like he's running a franchise, which, I can't blame him to some degree, but don't confuse his business like approach to the game with him being a great player - great players play with heart, determination, and toughness. Those are three things that are severely lacking in CJs game these days.


September 21st, 2010, 5:31 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
Dead honest here... if we don't start throwing a lob pass to him ever series were wasting our money. I don't care if they play nickel and put all 5 backers on him... he's gonna jump over all of them as long as the ball is a lob and close enough.

I believe we are trying to throw to him when he's open... guess what... he's not going to be open. Lob the ball or trade him...

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September 21st, 2010, 5:32 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
steensn wrote:
Dead honest here... if we don't start throwing a lob pass to him ever series were wasting our money. I don't care if they play nickel and put all 5 backers on him... he's gonna jump over all of them as long as the ball is a lob and close enough.

I believe we are trying to throw to him when he's open... guess what... he's not going to be open. Lob the ball or trade him...


I like it.


September 21st, 2010, 5:49 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
like I said before...umless we're robing somone blind....I just dont see it as a good idea. Ill leave it at that.

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September 21st, 2010, 5:53 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
When the defensive gameplan is to stop CJ, things open up for Best, along with our other WRs and TEs. By only looking at his individual contributions, you are missing his total contribution to the team.

This is like a few years ago when we traded Shaun Rogers. Individual his production was up and down, but once gone you saw the impact on the entire defense.

Be careful what you wish for...

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September 21st, 2010, 5:58 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
Pablo wrote:
When the defensive gameplan is to stop CJ, things open up for Best, along with our other WRs and TEs. By only looking at his individual contributions, you are missing his total contribution to the team.

This is like a few years ago when we traded Shaun Rogers. Individual his production was up and down, but once gone you saw the impact on the entire defense.

Be careful what you wish for...


The same doom and gloom was said about trading Roy Williams, but it really didn't hurt us at all to see him go.

I really don't see CJ commanding much more respect than someone like Vincent Jackson. Each has their good and bad points. IMO Jackson plays with a lot more edginess, he's quicker in short bursts, he has better concentration, and he's shiftier, allowing him to be more open. CJ is taller, faster in distances, jumps higher, and doesn't need to be as open because he can out climb most CBs.

The problem is CJ is a possession WR that needs to go over the middle and take hits, and he either refuses to do it or the coaching staff won't allow him to because they fear for his durability. I have a feeling that it is a little of both. As I said, CJ is running his career like a frachise, where his health and paycheck come first. The FO knows they're paying him a ton and they've already gotten him hurt at least once.

If CJ was willing to be a faster version of Keshaun Johnson he could be a great WR, but I don't think he's willing to take that kind of punishment. The FO won't use him the way he's meant to be used because they're worried about breaking him, so get rid of him... He's a niche player that seems to have a role that doesn't seem to help us all that much, especially given what he's going to command in terms of salary.


September 21st, 2010, 6:26 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
wjb21ndtown wrote:
The same doom and gloom was said about trading Roy Williams, but it really didn't hurt us at all to see him go.


Really? How did CJ look last year without Roy on the other side? Nearly half the yards and a third of the TDs as the previous year. Individually we don't miss Roy's production or lack of it, but their were other consequences. Perhpas CJ's attitude has also changed since Roy was traded - maybe that's why he is now running his "career like a franchise" - there are many unintended consequences to each action that can be hard to predict but should be looked at as part of the equation.

I'm also not a big fan of the money argument for a number of reasons. One, you are going to have players overpaid or underpaid based on production - a nature of the football biz. Second, it is hard to tell who you could have otherwise. Third, this is the Lions we are talking about so they are going to have to overpay for talent. And finally, no labor agreement next year so who knows what impact that is going to have.

Do I wish CJ was more productive, absolutely and I also think he has played two of his poorest games since entering the pros the past two weeks. I do, however, think Linehan can use him better than he has. Need to get CJ involved in the game much quicker, hell give him a handoff once in a while if you have to.

I understand where you are coming from WJB and if the price was right I would certainly consider a trade for just about anyone.

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September 21st, 2010, 6:53 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
HERMAN MOORE just called into 97.1 to talk about what CJ is doing wrong. :shock:


That was awesome, he was on for about 10 mins and they had to cut him off for the tigers :evil:

Basic overview: He also feels CJ is missing that fire, but feels he can attain it, and he put a TON of the blame on Linehan for not finding "creative ways" of getting the ball to CJ.

Says when he was playing, by design they took at least 2-3 shots downfield no matter what every quarter. Just prayed either he could make a play or draw a PI call, and he feels we should really do that with CJ also, and even said flat out that CJ was a better physical specimen than himself. And feels you have to give him a chance to make those plays.

He feels using CJ as a decoy can be effective, but with a guy like that, you have to put him in a position to make plays. He doesn't see any way possible a CB could even think to shield off CJ from a quick slant and feels we should run more plays that are designed to throw the ball directly to CJ immediately after the snap.

Overall I agreed almost completely with all of his points. Hopefully they will put the call on the Valenti and Foster podcasts.


September 21st, 2010, 6:58 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
Pablo wrote:
wjb21ndtown wrote:
The same doom and gloom was said about trading Roy Williams, but it really didn't hurt us at all to see him go.


Really? How did CJ look last year without Roy on the other side? Nearly half the yards and a third of the TDs as the previous year. Individually we don't miss Roy's production or lack of it, but their were other consequences. Perhpas CJ's attitude has also changed since Roy was traded - maybe that's why he is now running his "career like a franchise" - there are many unintended consequences to each action that can be hard to predict but should be looked at as part of the equation.

I'm also not a big fan of the money argument for a number of reasons. One, you are going to have players overpaid or underpaid based on production - a nature of the football biz. Second, it is hard to tell who you could have otherwise. Third, this is the Lions we are talking about so they are going to have to overpay for talent. And finally, no labor agreement next year so who knows what impact that is going to have.

Do I wish CJ was more productive, absolutely and I also think he has played two of his poorest games since entering the pros the past two weeks. I do, however, think Linehan can use him better than he has. Need to get CJ involved in the game much quicker, hell give him a handoff once in a while if you have to.

I understand where you are coming from WJB and if the price was right I would certainly consider a trade for just about anyone.


It's hard to say how much of the lack of offensive production, or CJ's dropoff in stats had to do with Roy's departure and how much of it is attributable to a new Qb/OC and learning the system. That said, Brian Johnson was absolutely HORRIBLE last year, as was Northcutt. Productive WRs that can catch and stretch the field are going to command the attention of the safeties. IMO we can have that for much cheaper than what CJ is going to command.

I understand where you're coming from regarding over-paying/under-paying players vs their performance. That said, I think this team is going to be in trouble for a number of reasons. Jeff Backus is already over-paid vs his performance, as is Dominic Raiola. Stafford is being paid like a Pro-bowl Qb and he's not living up to it as of yet, as is CJ and as is Suh. We have 3 50+ million dollar players on this roster, and they're playing like mediocre players. I don't see how we can succeed under those circumstances.

Regarding CJ and his mind-set - that was in place before he signed his contract here. Roys departure had nothing to do with it. I personally can't stand his attitude or approach to the game - it sucks. I feel the same way about Stafford.

I'm not a glass 1/2 empty kind of guy, but IMO the writing is on the wall for this team, and its going to be bad for a long time.

The only team in the league that I see that is worse off than we are is St. Louis.


September 21st, 2010, 7:05 pm
Post Re: Calvin Johnson
FootballPhreak wrote:
HERMAN MOORE just called into 97.1 to talk about what CJ is doing wrong. :shock:


That was awesome, he was on for about 10 mins and they had to cut him off for the tigers :evil:

Basic overview: He also feels CJ is missing that fire, but feels he can attain it, and he put a TON of the blame on Linehan for not finding "creative ways" of getting the ball to CJ.

Says when he was playing, by design they took at least 2-3 shots downfield no matter what every quarter. Just prayed either he could make a play or draw a PI call, and he feels we should really do that with CJ also, and even said flat out that CJ was a better physical specimen than himself. And feels you have to give him a chance to make those plays.

He feels using CJ as a decoy can be effective, but with a guy like that, you have to put him in a position to make plays. He doesn't see any way possible a CB could even think to shield off CJ from a quick slant and feels we should run more plays that are designed to throw the ball directly to CJ immediately after the snap.

Overall I agreed almost completely with all of his points. Hopefully they will put the call on the Valenti and Foster podcasts.


I love Herman Moore. I said a long time ago that Millen's biggest mistake was cutting our veteran WRs the same year that we drafted Roy. Roy needed a mentor and we had some great ones. IMO Roy wouldn't be the lazy, care-free player that he turned into if he was groomed properly.

I wish Moore would return as a WR coach or assistant WR coach. He seems like he would be great at it.

No one would argue that Moore was as physically gifted as Calvin, but his approach to the game was infinitely better.


September 21st, 2010, 7:09 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
Hey Joe-

I never said we should give him away, or that we should resign to losing. If that's what you got from what I wrote, you missed it.

Trading Roy wasn't that great of an idea, they went 0-16 that year, and were looking to draft WR the following season. Netting Derrick Williams. Trading Cj would leave a big gap, so you'd have to get a lot in return.

The problem is that the most physically dominant player on the feild seems to be neutralized for much of it. I don't claim to know why, just that it seems to be happening. WR are complementary pieces, who get 12 touches per game tops generally. When he has the ball, you can see what he is able to do.

The guys on this board were calling him a HOF player before he was drafted. So far, its not happening. I'd be happy to watch it unfold. Most of the 2010 draft strategy was based on the premise of improving the offense to free up the field and get CJ more room to roam. The season is young, and we may see it yet.

When the money does enter into it down the road, he will still be a WR, and the other pieces will still be at postions of greater value. I believe it will come into play, although I hope it will not. If there is no rookie salary cap or change going forward, the next #1 pick will likely be a top 10 as well. The Lions are still in the money trap, and will need to get out somehow if they hope to become competitive.

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September 21st, 2010, 8:56 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
wjb wrote
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It's hard to say how much of the lack of offensive production, or CJ's dropoff in stats had to do with Roy's departure and how much of it is attributable to a new Qb/OC and learning the system. That said, Brian Johnson was absolutely HORRIBLE last year, as was Northcutt. Productive WRs that can catch and stretch the field are going to command the attention of the safeties. IMO we can have that for much cheaper than what CJ is going to command.

I understand where you're coming from regarding over-paying/under-paying players vs their performance. That said, I think this team is going to be in trouble for a number of reasons. Jeff Backus is already over-paid vs his performance, as is Dominic Raiola. Stafford is being paid like a Pro-bowl Qb and he's not living up to it as of yet, as is CJ and as is Suh. We have 3 50+ million dollar players on this roster, and they're playing like mediocre players. I don't see how we can succeed under those circumstances.

Regarding CJ and his mind-set - that was in place before he signed his contract here. Roys departure had nothing to do with it. I personally can't stand his attitude or approach to the game - it sucks. I feel the same way about Stafford.

I'm not a glass 1/2 empty kind of guy, but IMO the writing is on the wall for this team, and its going to be bad for a long time.

The only team in the league that I see that is worse off than we are is St. Louis.


I think you are wrong. Sure some of the players we have on board are not good values especially Backus who is below average but the others you have mentioned are good players.

OLINE: Backus is clearly overpaid and below average a bad combination. Peterman is above average and appropriately paid. Sims appears to be an average player not being paind exorbitantly. Raiola is solid and gets paid well but not excessively. Cherilus is still on his rookie contract but seems to be improving and cutting down on mental errors/penalties this season. The Left tackle needs to be addressed, most likely in the first round of the next draft.

TEs: They have 3 solid TEs in Pettigrew, Scheffler and Heller. None are paid excessively. We dont need any moves at this position.

WRs: I dont care what you say I believe what I see and CJ is a stud, he came down with that catch in Wk1 that should ve been the game winner (again I dont care what you say, I believe what I see and they applied the wrong rule and also failed to read that rule). Again he came down with a huge catch in crunch time vs Philadelphia and again on the 2 pt. This guy is making clutch plays that are being ignored. He gets double coverage rolled to his side every single play. Burleson from what Ive seen in his career is a good complement as a NO 2 WR who is not afraid to make catches in the middle of the field. We havent seen it yet in Detroit but we have to give him some time. WIlliams, B Johnson, and clan are garbage players in the truest sense but its a lot easier to find No 3 and 4 WRs than starters.

QB: They are set with Stafford and Hill. Stafford s pay was big in his first year bc of the signing bonus but now his annual salary doesnt seem to be too far off what starting QBs should be getting. Clearly he has the talent and the leadership skills now he needs to get healthy and produce. Hill lacks talent but makes up for it with some gritty play. He s not much different than Kitna just a little less athletic.

DLine: Suh is a stud already. He s getting paid a ton but he can be realistically expected to be a star and when next year's rookies start getting paid he wont seem as overpaid. Vanden Bosch looks like he has the work ethic and hustle to last for a couple more years. He makes everyone around him better. Williams is a solid acquisition and buys time for Hill to develop. They will need another DT in the next 1-2 years but not urgently and dont need to spend a top draft pick. McBride and Avril seem like good rotation players with potential to become more. They may need a top flight DE sometime soon but for now this unit is passable.

LBers: This unit is totally stipped down. Peterson is above average but overpaid. They may not be able to hang onto him at his cost. Levy is a starter somewhere, we ll find out this year where. Follet may not be anything and Dizon might end up being a backup. The rest of their guys are special teamers. There is a need for 2 starters.

DBs: Houston seems adequate so far as a starter. Wade could be a nickel back. Delmas is a young keeper at safety. Can Spievey be the answer at the other spot? Im not so sure but the need here is for a No 1 CB, a 4th CB and a starting safety.

K/P: Both fine, usually not filled through draft.
KR/PR: Logan okay but probably need to find a replacement.
LS: Muhlbach despite his debut is fine.

Emergent needs: LT, No. 1 CB, SLB, WLB
Not every good team has a top flight CB. Look around the secondaries in this league, many of them are outplayed each week. Solid LTs are usually found in Rd 1 of the draft so that could be filled in 1 year. LBs can be found in the middle rounds of the draft and starting caliber players are available in free agency.

Urgent needs: Safety, No 3 WR, No 4 CB, KR/PR, young depth on DL
Later need: DE

Potentially the most emergent needs could be filled in one draft and free agency period. Even if its not completely addressed we end up a little weak in the secondary like many other NFL teams for another year.


September 21st, 2010, 10:57 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
Look- Calvin is a beast. As far as I'm concerned, he puts out max effort during games. He is the BEST physical specimen at WR in the league, hands down. All you guys saying he is lacking this or lacking that are basing that off the fact we lost two games and he doesn't have good numbers. If his GW TD would've counted, there would be no animosity. We, as fans, start playing the blame game when our teams start losing. As was stated above- Calvin is getting open. It is the QB's job to get him the ball, and the lines job to give the QB enough time to do so.

We need Calvin. If I could pick any WR in the league to start a franchise with, it would be him, hands down. He has the speed/jumping of Moss with more height/physicality.

How about we wait until at least half the season is over before calling for our best offensive player to be traded.

IT WILL NOT HELP THIS TEAM

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September 22nd, 2010, 12:47 am
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
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Ha... occupying 2-3 defenders every play? C' mon. He does draw a double team occasionally, and safeties HAVE to keep an eye on him, but he doesn't consistently occupy 2-3 defenders. The bottom line is that this offense doesn't look much different without CJ. He may take a little pressure off of Burleson, but he's not doing much to open up anything for Best or anyone else... Why? Because he's not getting down field, and he's not going over the middle.

On top of that... he's GOING to demand Larry Fitz type of money and this team is better letting him leave for that kind of coin


As others have said, you clearly aren't watching the games. CJ has a safety bracketed over him 90% of the time. I was at the game on Sunday, and even when Best was running all over the field, they still left the safety on CJ.

And, either you're right in that CJ sucks in which case he wont demand Fitz money, or CJ doesn't suck in which case he'd be worth the money.

Unless you expect a team to reddiculously overpay for him, but given the trend of major FA busts, I doubt it. Teams have already been gunshy about extending their own quality players.

Quote:
Yeah...gotta admit..the philosophy of "we can lose just as well without him" is so Millen it's not even funny...If I never hear that again it will be too soon. Dont blaim the line, or the rotten D...it's all CJ's fault the bastard!


Do you realize how poorly the Lions offense would've operated Sunday without CJ? You have a backup QB throwing to a third and fourth receiver...Philly would've just stuffed the box and the Lions would've been srewed.

Without CJ there's no way the Lions score 32 points last Sunday. Probably not even 20.

Quote:
Regarding CJ and his mind-set - that was in place before he signed his contract here. Roys departure had nothing to do with it. I personally can't stand his attitude or approach to the game - it sucks. I feel the same way about Stafford.


Dude...how do you know ANYTHING about CJ's approach to the game (or for that matter Stafford's)? How? Have you heard it critized in an interview by another player? The coaching staff? Do you have a mole in the organization?

You're just pulling criticisms out of your a** here with no supporting evidence.

Because he's meek in interviews? Well I thought you hated how Roy was obnoxious and overly confident in interviews. You can't have it both ways.

Quote:
I'm not a glass 1/2 empty kind of guy, but IMO the writing is on the wall for this team, and its going to be bad for a long time.

The only team in the league that I see that is worse off than we are is St. Louis.


Why? Because the Lions have a lot of money tied up in Backus, Raiola, Suh, Stafford and Calvin?

Backus only has two years left on his contract. It was a $40M 6 year contract, so I assume the last two years are not too hefty.

Raiola has three years left on his contract, which was only $20M.

CJ has two years left on his contract. He could be traded rather easily.

Stafford has only played one season. QBs take a while to develop, generally speaking.

Suh is already a monster, idk what games you've been waching. KVB is already playing better than he was in Tenn. Lineman don't get better with age past 30, so Suh is definitly helping KVB out. The Lions have arguably one of the best D lines in the league, and Suh is a huge part of that.


September 22nd, 2010, 3:40 am
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