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 Calvin Johnson 
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
Mayhew put it best--you don't trade your best players. Williams and Sims were sent packing because the front office thought they were overrated, didn't fit the system, or a combination of both. IMO, the price we got for them is a bonus but not the driving factor in those moves. What you guys are basically proposing is what McDaniels has done in Denver. Doesn't look too good from a distance, does it?

And as far as salaries go, look at what Minnesota is spending on Favre, Allen, Berrian, etc. etc. It makes no sense to worry about that in advance--we don't know how people are going to perform, if they're going to get injured, what kind of deal they might demand/command--the best course is just to try and make sensible deals at the outset and not overpay based on hype or one good season. If the contract is up and the player is asking too much, I'm sure Mayhew will have no problem with letting him go. But let's not panic and in the process ship away our best players.

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September 22nd, 2010, 7:43 am
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
Here's a question: San Diego has a few more days to work out the issues with their #1 Receiver, we are having "issues" with our #1 receiver. Any chance or interest in an even up swap?

Is it me, or does CJ not show a Killer Instinct while playing. Moss is aggressive and cocky, as is Braylon Edwards, ocho stinko, and his loud mouth counterpart, but CJ appears to be humble and quiet, producing silently. Is this a lack of passion or a character trait?

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September 22nd, 2010, 8:07 am
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
Jackson's suspended through 6 games I believe. If he's traded today, it's reduced to 4, IIRC

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September 22nd, 2010, 8:08 am
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
DevilDoc wrote:
Here's a question: San Diego has a few more days to work out the issues with their #1 Receiver, we are having "issues" with our #1 receiver. Any chance or interest in an even up swap?

Is it me, or does CJ not show a Killer Instinct while playing. Moss is aggressive and cocky, as is Braylon Edwards, ocho stinko, and his loud mouth counterpart, but CJ appears to be humble and quiet, producing silently. Is this a lack of passion or a character trait?



I would never go straight up CJ for VJ.


September 22nd, 2010, 9:05 am
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
This was spoken of on The Ticket yesterday by Valenti and Foster. Mike Valenti spoke about trading Calvin last year at the beginning of the season, and he was roasted by the fans.

But he had a solid point then, and a solid point now. Trading CJ has to be a consideration.

The trade detractors on this forum speak of how trading CJ would be a huge mistake, he's a beast, he's a powerful weapon...yada, yada, yada.

No, he's not. He's got the POTENTIAL to be all of that, but he's not producing. An unused weapon is not a weapon. And CJ is a largely unused weapon. Is that his fault, or the fault of others? I think it's a combination of things, but mostly it's on him.

Now, one could say, like Pablo did, that you can't simply look at his measurable production numbers to understand what IMPACT he has for the Lions...and he's absolutely right. CJ must be accounted for. He will certainly destroy most any CB one on one. However, that rarely happens. Chicago tried it for a half a game last year, and he dominated them. The remainder of the game they had at least one additional guy shadowing him.

In regards to CJs presence opening things up for others, that's not always the case. Did it happen against Chicago two weeks ago? No. Best didn't "break out", no other receivers really had strong games...his presence didn't truly make a difference for this team when it came to the scoreboard....at that's where it matters most. Did his presence last season open up things for anyone else? I didn't see it happening.

So, should we trade Calvin, arguably our biggest scoring threat, and definitely our biggest deep threat? It depends. If the Lions had traded him last year prior to the start of the 2009 season, undoubtedly they would have gotten a kings ransom for him. The 2010 draft had good talent at the top and was deep at several positions. I think the Lions easily could have gotten a first and third in the 2010 draft, and possibly a third or fourth in the upcoming 2011 lottery. I believe that would have been the minimum they could have gotten for him. Two firsts are out of the question. But I think what I show is reasonable. Imagine what the Lions could have done with that. However, this upcoming draft doesn't promise to be as talent laden, and is weak at a couple positions where the Lions need help...specifically offensive tackle.

The issue with CJ is that he is not possessed with a killer instinct. Other receivers across the league get constant double coverage and still produce big plays nearly once or twice every game. Randy Moss, Andre Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, Steve Smith, Derrick Mason....they all outproduce CJ on a regular basis. Different teams? Doesn't matter. Different QBs? Doesn't matter. Different offense? Doesn't matter. They produce because they drive themselves to outplay the guy across from them. THAT is what makes an elite receiver. THAT is the same thing that makes other players elite at their positions....Ray Lewis, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Troy Palomalu, Ed Reed, Bob Sanders......these guys aren't the most naturally talented players at their positions. It's what's INSIDE that makes them great.
Calvin Johnson is NOT an elite receiver in the NFL. He has elite level talent. But unused talent doesn't count for anything. And I don't believe he's using a fraction of what he can. During the game this past Sunday one of the announcers even mentioned that there's no reason why CJ shouldn't be putting up bigger numbers and scoring more, other than his own desire. He's had different QBs, different offense....the results have been largely the same. Sooner or later you gotta stop blaming the line, the QB or the coaching staff. He's responsible for his own level of play.

If the Lions could trade CJ for Marcus McNeill, they'd be fools NOT to. Why? Because the Lions have spent over a decade stockpiling offensive weapons either through trades or the draft, and it's gotten them to where they are today. They've ignored the offensive line and the defense. They finally spent a first round pick on the defensive line this year. Hurray. It's about freakin' time. Now how about the rest of the defense?

They took Pettigrew because he was the "best player available". I thought he was the best talent available, but not the best value available, and certainly not the best PLAYER that this team needed. They took Pettigrew for two reasons...and their names are Matthew Stafford and Calvin Johnson. And guess what, they took Jahvid Best for exactly the same reasons. To help Stafford and Calvin. And the coaching staff and front office in as much admitted it.

You want to help Stafford, not Calvin. And the best way to help Stafford is to protect him better and improve the defense so that Stafford has more opportunities.

No player should be off limits when it comes to a trade. CJ is no exception. If a team who looks like they are just that one big receiver away from serious contention comes calling with a package of picks or a solid player at a position of need for us, then Mayhew MUST consider it.

When you build a team, there are four positions that stand out above the rest. Passer, protector, pass rusher and cover man. I would say running back would be very close to those four.

The Lions have their passer (if he can stay healthy), they have their pass rusher (at least for a year or two), they have their running back. They lack the protector and cover man they NEED. Sorry folks, but CJ is not a NEED up and until he starts playing up to his potential, which nobody on this forum can say he's done.

Blame the OC? I have been critical of Linehan so far this season, and rightfully so. His playcalling has been atrocious. But previous to Linehan being the OC Calvin wasn't that spectacular either. Blame the QB? Blame the line? Sorry, but how many people do you blame before the common denominator comes back to haunt you.

Receivers with talent can be had throughout any given draft. They are plentiful. They may not have CJs potential or raw talent, but neither did Michael Irvin, Jerry Rice, or a host of other HOF receivers. You can find receivers who were taken in the third round or later throughout the NFL who do very well for their teams. But how many left tackles or shotdown corners are found beyond round two?

The Lions are STILL in a rebuilding mode....they still have numerous needs on this roster. If they can trade ONE guy, and fill two or three of those needs in the process, it is what you have to do. Remember, this is a business and in the NFL the business is ALL about winning, not just getting better a little bit year after year, or getting weapons for your offense, or putting on a show.

I wouldn't trade CJ for nothing....but I wouldn't go so far as to say you MUST keep him because he's such an incredible talent. He hasn't really done anything that spectacular here. And the fact is, when his contract is over he's going to DEMAND big money...and that's money the Lions should NOT spend on him. Better to get something for him NOW, if you possibly can. Particularly given that it's looking like there won't be football next year. Get some additional building blocks for the future at the right positions.

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September 22nd, 2010, 9:08 am
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
I don't think CJ is worth more then 2 first draft picks to the Lions. I believe I said the same thing last year and still believe the same.

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September 22nd, 2010, 9:14 am
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
thelomasbrowns wrote:
Mayhew put it best--you don't trade your best players. Williams and Sims were sent packing because the front office thought they were overrated, didn't fit the system, or a combination of both. IMO, the price we got for them is a bonus but not the driving factor in those moves. What you guys are basically proposing is what McDaniels has done in Denver. Doesn't look too good from a distance, does it?


First, Calvin right now is not one of our best players. You are looking at potential, like everybody else. He has impact on the game beyond his stats, I agree. But he should be able to take over a game, like an Andre Johnson, like a Randy Moss....and he's not even coming close. Most of that is on him.

Secondly, comparing trading CJ to what McDaniels did is apples to oranges. Trading Ernie Sims doesn't seem like it was such a great thing right about now because of the lack of talent at linebacker. Matt Forte and LeSean McCoy have torn us up the past two weeks, and those guys aren't that great. I'm not saying Sims is worth his contract...but really, is CJ playing up to his? I don't think so.
McDaniels got rid of players who didn't want to be there. He looked into trading Cutler, and Cutler had a temper tantrum. It's a business kid, get over it. Right now, I don't think his trading Cutler was necessarily a big mistake. Trading Marshall was basically the same thing...disgruntled player wanted out, so he gave him his wish. It's difficult to know right now whether those moves pan out. You have to take a look at what Denver got in return and how it turns out in the future when those players are developed.

And by the way...Denver won this weekend.

I'm not a McDaniels fan at all. I think he's an egomaniac. But comparing the tradings of two players DEMANDING trades and trading a player not playing up to his contract for the chance to accelerate the rebuilding of the roster is two different things.

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September 22nd, 2010, 9:28 am
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
m2karateman wrote:
I'm not a McDaniels fan at all. I think he's an egomaniac. But comparing the tradings of two players DEMANDING trades and trading a player not playing up to his contract for the chance to accelerate the rebuilding of the roster is two different things.


You overlook one thing: the players were demanding trades because of McDaniels.

I also want to point out, the one year Calvin put up the big fantasy numbers and seemed to catch a long bomb every week, WE WENT 0-16.

2009 Detroit Lions 14 14 67 984 14.7 75T 5 7 73 10.4 19 0 3 2
2008 Detroit Lions 16 16 78 1,331 17.1 96T 12 3 -1 -0.3 7 0 3 2
2007 Detroit Lions 15 10 48 756 15.8 49 4 4 52 13.0 32T 1 1 0

I would rather have the offense we have now, although I'll grant you Linehan outsmarts himself sometimes, than just a chuck-it-up-to-Calvin offense. The current approach will pay dividends in the long run, even if it's hard to stomach right now.

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September 22nd, 2010, 9:49 am
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
CJ sure did get the Pro Bowl snub that year. He put up great numbers, with what, 3 different QBs, and still got the shaft!

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September 22nd, 2010, 10:01 am
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
Blueskies wrote:
Dude...how do you know ANYTHING about CJ's approach to the game (or for that matter Stafford's)? How? Have you heard it critized in an interview by another player? The coaching staff? Do you have a mole in the organization?

You're just pulling criticisms out of your a** here with no supporting evidence.

Because he's meek in interviews? Well I thought you hated how Roy was obnoxious and overly confident in interviews. You can't have it both ways.


Don't even give me this bullsh!t. You can SEE his approach to the game by the way he takes the field, by the way he 1/2 asses routes, by the way he can't seem to focus and drops easy catches, by the influence that his Mom has on contract negotiations and how he handled his back injury, by the way he fluffs off not getting catches, by the way he doesn't care who is throwing to him or who is coaching him, and... idk... because he SAID that that he won't play with passion or with a chip on his shoulder.

EVERYONE seems to say that he has no killer instinct. So everyone must be blind, because they have no "moles" or insider knowledge.

That is the most ridiculous argument ever. You can't know something because you're not in there... Never mind what you see out of him week in and week out, never mind what you see of his attitude in his body language, you can't know something because you're not an inside...

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Blueskies wrote:
Do you realize how poorly the Lions offense would've operated Sunday without CJ? You have a backup QB throwing to a third and fourth receiver...Philly would've just stuffed the box and the Lions would've been srewed.

Without CJ there's no way the Lions score 32 points last Sunday. Probably not even 20.


No one is saying "give the guy away"... How would this offense have looked without CJ, but with Vincent Jackson? How would the offense have looked with Vincent Jackson in place of CJ and McNiel in place of Backus at LT?

Sure, the lions O would suffer without a #1 WR, but that #1 WR doesn't have to be Calvin Johnson.


Blueskies wrote:
And, either you're right in that CJ sucks in which case he wont demand Fitz money, or CJ doesn't suck in which case he'd be worth the money.

Unless you expect a team to reddiculously overpay for him, but given the trend of major FA busts, I doubt it. Teams have already been gunshy about extending their own quality players.


1) I never said that CJ sucks. If he sucks we wouldn't be able to trade him.

2) You have to do more than "not suck" to be worth Larry Fitz money.


September 22nd, 2010, 2:11 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
In all fairness, VJax is on a team with a top OL, always had a top RB and FB, top QB, and top TE...yet he still hasn't dominated and produced what CJ has. VJax isn't doubled every play and isn't the clutch WR that CJ is. CJ would have had 1100 yard last year had he not gotten banged up. He got shafted out of a PB'er with some of the best stats in the league in a season when he had 3 different QBs throwing to him. VJax has had a top 5 QB throwing to him every season, with 2 other potential HOF weapons (Gates and LT).

How can anyone say CJ doesn't have the fight and desire when VJax is suspended for 6 games because he's a whiny biotch and wants more money? That's a lot of fight and desire right there!!

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September 22nd, 2010, 2:31 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
if i could have any reciever in the league for calvin it would not be jackson. I would take brandon marshall over calvin though. Marshall is a beast, he always gets open and if a ball hits his hands he always catches it, even with three defenders on his back. plus he is still young. but other than him i wouldnt trade calvin for nobody. now thats not going to happen so lets not get to fired up about that comment.

I think we all need to understand that there are a lot of new weapons on detroits offense. Jahvid best is a rookie and no teams are going to respect him as a threat till he proves it. and up to this point there was no reason to not game plan against calvin johnson. Pettigrew being in his second year has never really put up game film to be feared by defenses either.

Look at the game pettigrew and best just had we seen that them guys are weapons as well as calvin and so is the other teams. by getting these other guys big games early in the season its gonna make other teams realize that they are going to need to respect more than just calvin and its going to open the door for calvin. now they need to get burleson back on the field and get him a big game on tape and there will be a lot of film for other teams to not like and make it tough for teams to single anybody out.

until these new players we have show that they are capable in our offense then a team is just going to continue to single calvin out. i believe what pettigrew and best did last sunday is the beginning of a whole new outlook to what other teams see in the film room when game planning against detroit and should mean bigger and better things for calvins future.


Last edited by vankman79 on September 22nd, 2010, 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.



September 22nd, 2010, 3:42 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
vankman79 wrote:
if i could have any reciever in the league for calvin it would not be jackson. I would take brandon marshall over calvin though. Marshall is a beast, he always gets open and if a ball hits his hands he always catches it, even with three defenders on his back. plus he is still young. but other than him i wouldnt trade calvin for nobody. now thats not going to happen so lets not get to fired up about that comment. I think we all need to understand that there are a lot of new weapons on detroits offense. Jahvid best is a rookie and no teams are going to respect him as a threat till he proves it. and up to this point there was no reason to not game plan against calvin johnson. Pettigrew being in his second year has never really put up game film to be feared by defenses either. Look at the game pettigrew and best just had we seen that them guys are weapons as well as calvin and so is the other teams. by getting these other guys big games early in the season its gonna make other teams realize that they are going to need to respect more than just calvin and its going to open the door for calvin. now they need to get burleson back on the field and get him a big game on tape and there will be a lot of film for other teams to not like and make it tough for teams to single anybody out. until these new players we have show that they are capable in our offense then a team is just going to continue to single calvin out. i believe what pettigrew and best did last sunday is the beginning of a whole new outlook to what other teams see in the film room when game planning against detroit and should mean bigger and better things for calvins future.


I think that very few people (if any) would take Jackson as the best WR in the league. The argument isn't that we'd be better off swapping CJ for VJ, the argument is that we'd be better off swapping CJ and Backus, for VJ and McNiel.

Andre Johnson, Boldin, Larry Fitz, Marshall, Moss, Ocho, Roddy White, Steve Smith (Carolina), and Jennings, IMO are all better than CJ.


That said, I agree with you about other teams shifting some of their focus to Best and other areas of the team, and that should help CJ's stats. Whether or not it equates to wins is another story.


September 22nd, 2010, 4:25 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
wjb21ndtown wrote:
vankman79 wrote:
if i could have any reciever in the league for calvin it would not be jackson. I would take brandon marshall over calvin though. Marshall is a beast, he always gets open and if a ball hits his hands he always catches it, even with three defenders on his back. plus he is still young. but other than him i wouldnt trade calvin for nobody. now thats not going to happen so lets not get to fired up about that comment. I think we all need to understand that there are a lot of new weapons on detroits offense. Jahvid best is a rookie and no teams are going to respect him as a threat till he proves it. and up to this point there was no reason to not game plan against calvin johnson. Pettigrew being in his second year has never really put up game film to be feared by defenses either. Look at the game pettigrew and best just had we seen that them guys are weapons as well as calvin and so is the other teams. by getting these other guys big games early in the season its gonna make other teams realize that they are going to need to respect more than just calvin and its going to open the door for calvin. now they need to get burleson back on the field and get him a big game on tape and there will be a lot of film for other teams to not like and make it tough for teams to single anybody out. until these new players we have show that they are capable in our offense then a team is just going to continue to single calvin out. i believe what pettigrew and best did last sunday is the beginning of a whole new outlook to what other teams see in the film room when game planning against detroit and should mean bigger and better things for calvins future.


I think that very few people (if any) would take Jackson as the best WR in the league. The argument isn't that we'd be better off swapping CJ for VJ, the argument is that we'd be better off swapping CJ and Backus, for VJ and McNiel.

Andre Johnson, Boldin, Larry Fitz, Marshall, Moss, Ocho, Roddy White, Steve Smith (Carolina), and Jennings, IMO are all better than CJ.


That said, I agree with you about other teams shifting some of their focus to Best and other areas of the team, and that should help CJ's stats. Whether or not it equates to wins is another story.


i beg to differ that any of them are better than calvin, the reason i wouldnt take andre johnson, boldin, fitz, moss, ocho, smith is simply because of their age, this team is not in position to win a super bowl in the next couple years, but in 3 or 4 maybe and where will them players be then.

white is a good wr no doubt, but he is not a physical wr and i will take a physical wr over a quick tall reciever any day. and you think jennings is better than calvin, whats wrong with you man. put calvin in a packers uniform and see what arron rodgers does for calvin and that thought would be eliminated from your mind lol.

I do agree it probably isnt going to equate to wins because the defense is so bad, but its a step in the right directions. I dont have a problem with the lions losing this season rather than going 6-10 or 7-9 and it may sound like i am anti-lions but i really would like one more year of a top 2 draft pick because you get one of the best players in the draft and you get a first round talent at the top of the second rd. we are only 5 or 6 players away from being a really good team and that would bring 2 really good players just with the 2 picks. get a couple good players in free agency and quit picking bums in the third round and the lions will have arrived. i would just like to see the lions offense take off and score a ton of points this season and showing the only problem to be the defense which isnt all bad. the defesive line is set, but the rest is pretty bad. alphonzo smith could develope into a good cb, maybe, maybe not we will see. he was a first round pick so we will see what happens.


Last edited by vankman79 on September 22nd, 2010, 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.



September 22nd, 2010, 4:34 pm
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Post Re: Calvin Johnson
For those talking about CJ's perceived lack of a killer instinct, couldn't the same have been said about Barry??? IIRC, Barry wasn't known to be a firey leader/player, he just did his job, right?

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September 22nd, 2010, 4:48 pm
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